Vx - Does knock detection cause spark misfire?

[kojab]

Still going with this problem.


Oxygen sensor voltage seems way too low.

Have you used any Silastic on this engine any where. Maybe the Oxygen sensors have become poisoned.

[immortality]

Still going with this problem.


Oxygen sensor voltage seems way too low.

Have you used any Silastic on this engine any where. Maybe the Oxygen sensors have become poisoned.

It's in lean cruise mode looking at the target AFR of 17 so the O2 sensors would be out way past their normal operating range.

[kojab]

Yes that makes perfect sense.

[JohnDee68]

Where did you get to with the dodgy injectors?

Looking at those numbers you're just cruising down the motorway in lean cruise mode.

The knock retard numbers don't make sense though.

Thanks immortality for the feedback.

Yes, it was in Cruise at the time, well noticed.
I can't understand why at idle the Injector pulse can be what I would expect at around 1.5ms and then both in and out of cruise at times other than idle the injector pulse is around the 250-500ms.
Yes, the saga with the "counterfeit" injectors is still going in a more legal direction.
At this stage I have actually had to put back in my genuine original injectors to be at least on the road again (though large consumption of fuel. I did an estimate the other day just in to town (60km trip), came back near 25 L/100km.

I swapped out the recently new Goss O2 sensors back to using my original O2 sensors as the new Goss ones seemed to be coming out of Closed loop more often than in closed loop. I had originally purchased the new ones simply as the age of the originals could have been the cause of my rich condition, even though they were reading as lean most of the time but did seem to stay in closed loop more often however. I don't know for sure yet if the Goss ones are faulty or not now, maybe just slow ? Nor do I know if my originals are 100% ok or not.

I have checked the injectors numerous times now for flow and consistency. They perform evenly and better than fair if not as if new.

I am trying to now work out their base flow rate so I can ensure in the tune (via TunerPro) I have the correct "Base Flow Rate" value for them to see if that helps with the issue I am having. But I am at loss for calculating the required mSec/Gram value from what I can get from the simple test machine.

I have a value from the test machine as follows:
It pulses the injector on for 3msec in every minute.
Over a 10min test they flow a total volume of 55ml.

So I need to work out a formulae to calculate those figures to end up with mSec/gram. (I should have listened in maths class..lol). I tried about 1am this morning but didn't get a reasonable formulae. I will try again later today when I am not so mentally tired.

Thanks again.

[JohnDee68]

Still going with this problem.
Oxygen sensor voltage seems way too low.
Have you used any Silastic on this engine any where. Maybe the Oxygen sensors have become poisoned.

Thanks for the thought kojab. Good thought, but no I don't use silicone or anything in that area. Only place I use any sealant is timing cover gasket and the inlet manifold seal areas.
The O2 sensors are a saga though. See my reply to immortality before this one.

Thanks though, appreciate all suggestions as I am at a little loss in this saga.

[JohnDee68]

Just a bit more (maybe crucial info) details of testing.

I redid for the third or fourth time now, fuel rail pressure tests. Came back with these figures below.
(I used this value of pressure to check the injectors and their operations at such pressures to see if fuel pressure could be causing any issues. It seems not.)

At idle 36.5psi
At idle with Fuel pressure regulator hose off : 47psi.

I didn't record the pressure at acceleration, but from memory it didn't move much, especially not drop. An interesting thing I thought. If I monitor the pressure (after I take out the pump relay) the car will still run obviously until either all fuel is out of rail or pressure drops significantly. Well the motor still idles (though gets rougher as would be expected as the pressure drops slowly). The car will still idle until rail pressure falls just under 10psi. So I don't think fuel pressure is any issue in this case.

Another noticeable, maybe irrelevant to my cars issues, is the car instrument cluster displays (using the instrument cluster txx -- error viewing). Shows this:

t08 H- No serial data from ABS
t09 H- No serial data from BCM
t11 H- No serial data from PCM
t12 H- No serial data from SDM
t13 H- No instrument poll from BCM
t14 H- No serial communication
t16 HC ABS or ABS/ETC fault logged
t17 HC BCM fault logged
t19 HC PCM fault logged

I am unsure if they are related to recent causes though or if they have been there for some decade or more. Though nothing comes up as errors using the two software I have from Envyous Customs.
I did get a replacement SDM module and reset the Airbag light a few weeks back now, but cleared the airbag light then with the software. Though I am unsure if that might need a Tech 2 machine to code the units together?

Thanks.

[immortality]

If you are using the stock tune/injector or the enhanced tune the injector values will be correct as they are what Holden used.

There is the potential that the bad injectors have flooded the O2 sensors and ruined them. What you are looking for with O2 sensors in closed loop mode is cross counts, how often they swing rich-lean-rich.

[JohnDee68]

Hi imortality, you person of great knowledge..

That does make sense with the reason the original O2 sensors seem to work healthy again after being off the car for a week or so. I'm also thinking that because of the counterfeit injectors allowing so much more fuel through them, it's now carboned up the catalytic converter, which could be what the strange smell is now? Without proper testing equipment I'm unable to smell the difference of its fuel or other gasses. All I know is it feels like it burns your throat when breathed in. I did my QLD trip (5000km) in March on the counterfeit injectors and had around 12L/¹⁰⁰km economy mostly except 1 tank I got just over 8L/100km. Which makes me think that there's an intermitant failing somewhere rather than tune or mechanical issue. But I could be off there. Hence why I'm feeling lost with this fault.
But to me, that doesn't explain why I get 1.5ms at idle then 250ms to about 500msec pulse timing on the injectors above idle when the Rate is set as the tune is like you say from the one which was about 361.33 from my memory that's the default value. Unless the figure is wrong for my current injectors? Hence why I'd like to know these current injectors flow rate precise as Ive read 4 different given rates for the same part numbers. Ive used another ecu as testing and it seems to still do the same. I'm suspecting it's car related, like a loom or connector, or possibly ABS or DFi module from only what I've been reading. Though I don't have all the symptoms that others refer to the ABS as a cause for their issues at the time. I tend to always have strange fault caused by simple things. Like I had the trans issue ones which ended up being a micro size piece of foil from the underbody had fallen in to the trans connector socket and shorted out just 2 pins which caused hard shifting in the trans. No codes or anything else was wrong. That took some time to locate as well.

I stick by the old rule of thumb. If the fault isn't logical, it will end up being a logic failing. If it is repeatable and logical, it'll be a mechanical failing. That's never let me down over the past 30 years. I just often forget that at times.

Thanks heaps again imortality. I appreciate your help and other as well. I'm determined to resolve this, but I need help to do so.

[antus]

I havnt been following the thread but just read the last few posts. Dont even attempt to calculate flow rate by pulsing the injectors, as the more they pulse the greater the % of time they are in a partial open state which will mess up your measurements. Agree that using stock flow rate and stock opening times as default in tune is what you need there anyhow.

The 250/500ms cant be right. Those numbers are way too high and way out of spec. 500ms is injector open for half a second. That's impossible to deliver with any amount of RPM. Something is not right there with how you are reading that data, or what is producing it.

The instrument cluster errors, I am not sure how long they stay around, but they would be triggered when you log the car in tunerpro and it turns off the heartbeat and all the module communications stop so tunerpro can do its thing. Normally they would reset when you finish logging or key off/key on but everything I do is on the bench, so I dont know what that looks like in the car.

[JohnDee68]

Thanks Angus, appreciate your advice always.

Yes I can't see the 250ms -500msec being possible. However, that is what is being displayed from the Advanced Diagnostic software from Envyous Customs.
I can't work out why it would show such readings if there isn't an issue with either the tune, ecu, wiring or something else. Could I have some sort of bad earth, as I can't seem to find any bad earthing issues at all.

With reference to the flow rates. Surely it would be viable to be able to calculate injector flow rates for times when injectors are from a wreckers? As I know that my injector part number comes back with too many variants from different sources, including Bosch, as to their flow rates. From what I can tell when I played with that value a many months back. lt didn't take much variant in the tunerpro value to make a significant difference to how the motor ran. So I was more wanting to just confirm their delivery over set time so I could tell if they're close enough to the value in tunerpro.

In comparison of my current injectors which are genuine Bosch. And the suspected counterfeit injectors. There was something like 20ml in thier delivery over a 10min pulsing cycle. Though the suspected counterfeit injectors performed as good as one would expect from genuine new ones. With test I've done on injectors, the car, the ecu tune and results I've been seeing, I am so confused.

Next week I'll be able to have the car garaged for about 5 days, so I'm hoping to go back over wiring and sensor testing again. As I can't rule out things of any possibility, even like vermin chewing wires somewhere.

I appreciate all advice, suggestions, thanks.